Doug feel free to explain the Esters and double esters..

From my understanding the Mobil 1 0W-40, 5W-40 Delvac and 5W-50 have these double esters, rumor has it that the VTwin and Race oil have it also.

__________________
Ultimate Motorwerks

kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com

360.805-9066

Hi,
Kevin in response to your questions - I hope it is understandable

NOTE 1
I know that certain M1 products have/had an ester content (I cannot disclose the "ester" structure of all of these products)
It is my belief that M1 0W-40 and M1 TDT 5W-40 (Delvac 1 5W-40) are two - it is possible that M1 5W-50 has too. This is because of its wide (45 'point') viscosity spread and it's cranking rating and low pour point

ESTERS
Ester based lubricants have been around for tens of decades. It was the work done between around 1936 and 1945 by the Germans that is most significant (see NOTE 3 below). They have been used in lubrication for well over 50 years. For 40 years at l;east they have been the exclusive mainstay in the lubrication of jet engines. I can provide comment and some on this and the moves to date

1 - Esters are primarily formed by the amalgam (and reaction) of acids and alcohols. By this fact alone you can imagine the wide spead range of possibilities! They were the first "synthetic" automotive engine lubricants. They are most beneficial at the extremes of severe lubricant performance

Esters (over PAOs) have a great influence on imparting polarity into the molecules involved. This polarity affects the way they perfom as lubricants. It is also inportant in the temporary "shearing" charcteristics of some lubricants

The affects are felt most in lubricity, dispersency, detergency and of great importance now - biodegradability

2 - Di-esters (dibasic acid esters) are those progressed with great success by the Germans in the 1930s-1940s (primarily low temperature perfomers - some with -70C pour points)

3 - Polyol-esters is short for "neopentyl polyol esters" - a raection of fatty acids and polyhedric alcohols (high temperature performers - sump temperatures of >200C)
These have been the prime jet engine "esters" for nearly 40 years. These are the esters "best" suited for use with PAOs in synthetic engine oils (Delvac 1 5W-40 is based on this)

4 - The move from Diesters to Polyol esters has been driven by cost and performance considerations

5 - The perfomance of the lubricant can be tailor made by using a mix of PAOs and esters. This enables a low pour point with an excellent and very high temperature performance too

6 - The downside to esters in lubricants is getting the "blend" right and in the end the cost to the end user!

NOTE 2
I believe but cannot confirm that the term "double ester" denotes a mix of the diester and polyol ester streams. It does NOT denote a better lubricant than a PAO and ester mix!

NOTE 3
The Germans "built" the structure for most modern synthetic lubricants! They were experts in the field and this knowledge and expertise was transferred to the USA and Great Britain after WW2 ended. Ester based lubricants were a significant part of their research and production and they were able to produce stabil lubricants for rocket and jet engine use along with lubricants having a very low pour point and excellent high temperature stability for marine and automotive use

I believe that ExxonMobil (via various Corporate structures) is the Worlds most experienced producer and the largest supplier of esters to other Oil Blenders

No magic lubricant exists and a "known" Brand synthetic lubricant of PAO and ester construction will perform at a similar level to a "double ester" lubricant of similar specification

__________________
Regards
Doug Hillary
MY06 CLK Benz (M1 0w-40)
MY01 Boxster 2.7 Tiptronic (Delvac 1 5w-40)

Interesting thread.

Has anyone done UOAs for these engines to determine how the various oils perform??? What better way to evaluate an oil then to measure it's breakdown and engine where in YOUR engine based on YOUR driving....


It seems like such an obvious metric, yet I've not seen it mentioned in the 996 forums. (I've done a bunch in the E39M5 world)

Comments/thoughts?

Adam

It would interesting to know who these companies are. I think that I know 3 companies that use the Mobil base stock, then in turn there marketing department trash Mobil 1..

__________________
Ultimate Motorwerks

kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com

360.805-9066

Hi,
ard - Used Oil Analysis (UOA) has been done for many decades and have been shown on a number of Forums for various 996 engine families. For direct comparison they need to be from identical engine configurations
Most I have analysed show very low wear metal levels and a slow rate of lubricant deterioration of Approved lubricants
Some engine "wear" does not show up in UOAs

Trending UOAs against an individual engine is an excellent way to measure wear metal uptake rates - UOAs are best for determining the lubricant's condition

Kevin - A number of large Oil Companies have base oil "interchanges" and Blending is often done by one Company for another. It is the same with inhouse devised chemicals, and in particular regarding lubricants such things as PAO combinations, "esters" and etc

Corporate confidentiality often prevents naming such things........................

__________________
Regards
Doug Hillary
MY06 CLK Benz (M1 0w-40)
MY01 Boxster 2.7 Tiptronic (Delvac 1 5w-40)

Hi Doug-

Thanks for the comments. A couple of thoughts/comments/questions:

-What engine wear will NOT show up in a UOA???

- I agree that it is almost impossible to declare a 'winner' based on UOAs, in other words to test a few engines (with their different tolerances that can confound wear markers) in order to determine the 'best' oil for the genral universe of engines... but I see so many people asking 'what is best for me, this is how I drive?' Wouldn't a UOA tell the story on THEIR application? Indeed, wouldn't a UOA for every oil change give that 'early warning' that something is amiss?

I've been collecting UOAs on bmw S62s with various oils over time, just hadn't seen anyone in the 996TT forums discussing it much (And I haven't made a dedicated search over at BITOG). Interestingly, in the E39M5 it has proven that BMWs 15000 mile interval on oil changes is woefully inadequate.

I'm planning on UOAs on my 996TT at each oil change, at least for 6 or 7 changes to get it trending.

Regards

Adam

I think that Oil testing sampling is a good idea if done at every oil change and used as a monitored basis. We are going to see wear. Especially copper coming from the intermediate shaft bearings.. Sadly enough.

__________________
Ultimate Motorwerks

kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com

360.805-9066

Is this the same 5w 40 Diesel M1? for sale at Grainger $12 a gallon I think on clearance

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None left!

Redline now comes in 0w40.